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lostami

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Reply with quote  #1 
So the way I see it point defense is not currently functional and missiles need a good hard pass over with the balancing wand.

I made a platform of 20 gatling turrets, and fired missiles at them, not a single missile was shot down, and this was one missile at a time, in a combat situation it would be more then one.

This means that larger ships will always take far more expensive and time consuming to repair damage then they are worth having even in small engagements.

Compound the fact that I believe missiles need to be split into groups such as rockets, light missiles and torpedos, with only the latter being able to do any real damage to large ship heavy armor, and you see how the game could be better off.

Rockets: what we have now, cheap, fast, but a far lower yield, good for a keep terror weapon against weak targets or ambushes.

Light missiles: A mid size weapon, not so cheap, slower then rockets by far, with tracking and a medium yield. Perfect for fighter to fighter combat but ineffective against large ship armor and only mildly effective against common exposed components such as turrets and engines.

Torpedos: Slow, expensive but packs the punch needed to make a real impression on a large ship, perfect for blasting a hole in something big but useless in fighter to fighter combat and to expensive to use on weak enemies, and far to big to carry large numbers on a fast attack craft.

Add in some ECM or jammers for fighters and you see how it all balances out.
This should prolong combat and make building large ships worth it, the longer you play, the more you do, the safer and more powerful on the server you will be.
goduranus

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Reply with quote  #2 
Current 200mm missiles are what's used on the modern day MLRS, one hit naturally does heavy damage. Light missiles should be smaller than what we have now, like 57mm or 70mm hydra rockets, but more of them could be carried.
lostami

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Reply with quote  #3 

That makes sense from a realistic point of view, but I feel we can't focus on reality to such and extent we forget about gameplay, we need some balancing work here.
There is a great deal that needs attention to make the game not just cool, but playable both in single player and multi-player. The time taken to build and the time taken to destroy the same thing are very at odds, it's better to invest in smaller creations as of a minimalist design then it is to make something large and effective, because the resource loss would be far to much otherwise.

Combat in the game is stunted by the fact that it is to easy to apply damage and takes to long to rebuild or repair, leaving people unwilling to play in any competitive way, or to risk any sort of damage at all with possible future AI or the existing random hostile ships that float by.

We need to extend combat time, increase the tactical mechanics of the game, and overall reduce the tedium that combat would bring. This is about game balance, not realism, we need to respect reality to an extent but to much of one thing will make a game unbalanced.

I understand the current military weapons and how unrealistic my above posts is, but at some point you have to call it, and use classic game mechanics to level the playing field, otherwise we all know it will make people unhappy and they will post there feelings in a angry and hash manner.

The three tier system I suggested, I believes solves this issues, after that it's all numbers and polish.

goduranus

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Reply with quote  #4 
If you think changing rockets will help then you've obviously not seen ramming or projectile attacks

Try my ship and see if you still think changing rockets will help

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=346294162&searchtext=
AndreyKl

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Reply with quote  #5 
Simple rocks are dangerous espessially against large stations, but not universal - hard to recharge, to target mobile targets, affected by gravity, high spread and can be affected by 'floating objects limit'/cleanup scripts.

I agree with lostami that we need working point defense and missile balancing. But I imagine it in a bit different way.
For example PD can be implemented as alternate type of rounds (completely universal weapons will be disbalancing). Missiles should be all of one size as well, but be separated into PD type (for example they blow up near enemy missiles and disable bunch of them simultaneously, same might work against rocks), unguided type (what we have now) and homing type (lower damage, homing, higher range). Also presence of homing missiles means that small ships will require some kind of counter (or decoy) for missiles.
Maegil

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by goduranus
Current 200mm missiles are what's used on the modern day MLRS, one hit naturally does heavy damage. Light missiles should be smaller than what we have now, like 57mm or 70mm hydra rockets, but more of them could be carried.

What we have now is a MRLS-sized, light missile-yield, basically a short range WWII Katyusha rocket. Low end boomstuff, really.
Tristavius

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Reply with quote  #7 
I've always felt damage is way over the top in Space Engineers, missiles especially and doubly so when they are low power requirements, AI controlled turrets.

We modders can actually make most of what you describe on the missile front, but of course there are no agreed standards to work to.  Even between the build crowds there doesn't seem to be much of an agreement... many survival players asking for modded weapons etc see only the materials costs as the balancing issue, whereas the creative crowd think little of the materials but rather size etc.

The big problem is in fact Point Defence as the original poster said.  I spend a LONG time trying to come up with a decent PD system but to no effect.  My plan was to make an extremely high projectile speed and rate of fire at the expense of damage (i.e. it would do very little to players or ships).  The problem is even with a huge projectile speed, the turrets are lucky if they hit 1 in 4 from good angles.  The tracking time is part of the problem which might possibly be changable now that they've added rotation speed modding to turrets. 

To really come up with a proper PD system I think we'd need a few things...

- Extremely fast reaction times on the PD Turret to start shooting in good time
- Turrets to have Space Invaders training (shoot where it's going to be not where it is!)
- Missile hitpoints rather than just safe/destroyed - this would allow for heavier missiles to still stand a chance
- Ability to have turrets hard-coded to only fire at missiles, nothing else

But to be fair on missile users there needs to be some holes in the system too, which are actually easy enough to introduce...

- Reload times after a magazine is expended to provide 'holes' in the flak screen
- Limited angles so a vessel will often have blind spots (this is now possible!)
goduranus

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Reply with quote  #8 
You can't be serious about current missiles dong too much damage, you just need some heavy armor. Light armror in game is only there for structural support. The've only got the thickness of a car door panel.
Orange_Slime_

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostami
So the way I see it point defense is not currently functional and missiles need a good hard pass over with the balancing wand.

I made a platform of 20 gatling turrets, and fired missiles at them, not a single missile was shot down, and this was one missile at a time, in a combat situation it would be more then one.

Gatlings may be less effective against missiles, but first of all, were they powered? Were they set to be an enemy? otherwise they won't fire on missiles.

Past that, i think that gatlings are currently way OP, they can destroy a fighter instantly and drill a tiny hole straight thru a cockpit, gatlings should not be able to prioritise parts unless they can be seen.

+1 for the new missile idea tho
AutoMcD

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Reply with quote  #10 
I agree, the defense turrets are simply NOT EFFECTIVE.

The missile turrets are acceptable I think, from the perspective of slinging high damage at large+slow targets. They need to be better at leading the target.

The gatlings are just not getting it done. They NEED to be better at leading the target. They are not effective point defense, the bullets travel too slowly, easily run out of ammo by just dancing around in front of it for a while. And if you sling an armored torp bomb, they don't do enough damage to stop it. (assuming it's going slowly enough that they hit it).

There's a million threads on here asking for laser point defense. Something that is 100% accurate, powerful enough to take down missiles, and does not run out of ammo. And I agree with every one of them. Approaching something which has laser defense SHOULD require an armored craft.

Let the lasers worry about the fast+agile things, rockets for incoming armor, and gatlings as the in-between moderate damage deterrent.

betelgeux

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Reply with quote  #11 
I see a big issue with defense, because this is the game-breaking point for long term multiplayer persistent game. You can not protect (or at least make an effort toward protecting) your stuff when your offline.

I also wrote about this issue in my suggestions on multiplayer: http://forums.keenswh.com/post/multiplayer-game-flow-evolution-7271423

But modding the space suit speed would also help enourmosly to be able to defend the base. Limit the acceleration rate to much lower value when getting above 10-15 m/s.. so you cant just roam around with space suits at max speed so easily and you cant dodge the gattlings. This would be an incentive to at least try to build a ship to attack a base. And then we can talk about defense balances and defense systems to counter all kinds of exploits, decoy ships, ramming ships etc.

And for meaningful defense systems I try to brainstorm something: We need some kind of area denial system to make protective zones around bases. Especially against space suits and smaller targets. I know force fields and shield are a no go for spe, because that would look odd in the design. But again, there are technologies even accessible in real life which use some kind of energy beam (not laser) to paint an area. So I would imagine something, like a microwave or IR projector which can target a volume and not just a beam, and anything entering into the field of projection would get damage. And closer to the source of energy the bigger the damage. The base system could look like a reflector lamp with automated targeting mechanism. And when it senses something it targets and paint it with energy. (but it is not a laser BEAM! It has a few degrees of dispersion, so it behaves like normal light and can catch stuff which is not in the center point of the reticule as well)
AutoMcD

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Reply with quote  #12 
the best defense is simply to be very hidden, far away from the others. and set up an outer perimeter defense.
betelgeux

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Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoMcD
the best defense is simply to be very hidden, far away from the others. and set up an outer perimeter defense.


Ok, but then whats the point of the game? You can also play then offline in creative, and I guarantee that noone will ever find you. Thats the best defense. Or you can even exit space engineers and turn off the pc... thats extra safe[smile]

AutoMcD

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Reply with quote  #14 
The last MP server I was on was before the explore update. The asteroid belt was definitely a suicidal place to leave anything.. I found some satisfaction in remaining hidden, only sending out things to gather ore and returning. Sometimes raiding someone else's stuff that I found. 2 clans did have a melee but they seem few and far between.
Orange_Slime_

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Reply with quote  #15 
I think that #1 MP servers need a reason to exist, because currently you can get everything you need from a single asteroid and never have contact with more than one or two players. MP servers first of all, need better optimising, second, a space station or colony that will destroy you if you attack it, with landing and takeoff permissions, third, they REALLY really need to make the ores more scarce, no trading going on anywhere I've played(But I don't MP much cause I have a sucky comp), fourth, there has to be a better system of connecting to servers than now, it takes like ten minutes min to download a map, It downloads everything at once, I think it should be a chunk LOS based system.



Sorry if I got too off topic
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